On June 4, Pacific Oaks College hosted a discussion on the recent killing of George Floyd and its impact on the community. Faculty, staff, students, and alumni attended the virtual session to ask questions and voice their concerns and frustrations. Donald Grant Jr., Pys.D., executive direction for the Center for Community and Social Impact moderated. Dr. Jack Paduntin, president of Pacific Oaks College and Children’s School and Victoria Lugo, new dean of student services, were also panelists. You can read the conversation, edited for length and clarity, below.
Katie O’Donnell, alumna: I feel helpless with COVID-19. I have been staying home. What can I do from home?
Dr. Paduntin: You can help by educating yourself. You can help by educating others. And by this conversation, that’s how you help. The deeper understanding needs to actually occur among our group. Social justice doesn’t end very easily, not because we believe that it’s going to end. We believe if we need to act on it, we need to be an advocate about it, we need to be vocal about that, being vocal by being just what we are today.
Dr. Grant: The whole construct of being antiracist is its active construct. If you’re not antisexist, then you’re sexist. If you’re not antiracist, then you’re racist. That means that we’re actively participating or even passively participating in an activity. When we talk about being stuck in the house for many of us who may not be able to leave or may not even feel safe enough to leave what Jack said about learning is really important. Perhaps you could do a book scholarship of $50 to a student at an HBCU or maybe you’ll redirect your philanthropic dollars from your church for this year to the NAACP or the United Negro College Fund. Maybe you’ll get a subscription to a fledgling black magazine to make sure that those journalists are able to maintain their livelihood. Maybe you’ll support a black-owned business in a way that you haven’t before, and you may have to drive across town or drive to a neighborhood that’s not yours. Those are all ways in which we can support the dismantling of structural racism.
When we’re talking about the fact that no matter whether a black person is rich or poor, they’re still getting their legs amputated from diabetes at a higher rate than any other ethnic culture. Their babies are still dying on the delivery tables more than any other culture. Even though we’re stuck at home, there are actively things that we could be doing to pay attention to the systems of racism. Maybe you want to buy some ballet shoes for a little girl in the inner city who can’t afford ballet shoes. I still remember recently watching when they first began to develop ballet shoes in the color of skin for black girls. That had never been a thing until about five or six years ago where black girls were able to get tights and shoes in the color of their skin.
When we’re talking about how our fight or flight mechanism works, people oftentimes forget about the third option. It’s not just fight or flight. It’s fight, flight, or freeze. And many of us right now feel frozen no matter what ethnicity or what culture you’re in. I’ve spoken to Latinx friends, black friends, white friends. A lot of people feel frozen now, but there are so many resources and so many things you can do.
Allies to accomplices
Dr. Dionne Clabaugh, human development faculty member: Could you please talk a little bit about allyship and the meaning of it? Not just to someone who would practice it, such as myself, but what does allyship look like to others, and what is the meaning of it when a person practices or is an ally?
Dr. Grant: Right now, we have those who identify as bystanders, those who identify as allies, and those who identify as accomplices. What our goal is, is to move people in the end group, whether we’re talking about heterosexism, Christian privilege, racism, sexism, whatever. We want to move them from being bystanders by first of all giving them language to be able to speak up in certain settings. An ally is somebody who is unwilling to stand by and not engage in activities that support equity, that support equality, that support a mission. There is a challenge between one’s white identity development from allyship to accomplice, when we’re talking about racism. The goal now in the anti-racist movement is to not look for allies.
What we need now, Dr. Clabaugh, are accomplices. We need people who have skin in the game. That’s the difference between an ally and an accomplice. An ally will make a beautiful sign, they will go to the march, they’ll post a nice message on Facebook, they’ll post an article on Twitter, but they won’t necessarily risk themselves. So an accomplice in, let’s say, the workplace against sexism is the man who will go to his boss and say, “You know what? I just learned Sally makes 25% less than me. I’m willing to lower my salary so that we can increase paid equality in the organization.” That’s the difference between an ally and an accomplice .
Dr. Paduntin: Don, that’s a very good question on sexism and equality of pay. If you would, give maybe some more examples for us. If we are to move from ally to support the black community, how would that look to you?
Dr. Grant: When we look, for instance, at HR practices, we need to make sure that, in each of our departments, we’re actively identifying people of color to fill some of those roles. Some of us exist in positions where we can be mentors. What we know is that black and brown people don’t have access to mentors in the same way that white and Asian American people do. We need to be mentors and provide access to mentors. I’m taking time out of my own productivity to support the mentorship and the development of someone else. Sometimes we need to step aside and make way for somebody else who we know should be in that space. Sometimes, as students and faculty, we need to bring in that very hard conversation that we were not able to have.
Right now, I’m in a position, for instance, where I am dealing with my own trauma as a black man, in this particular setting, being the father of a black son, and understanding the magnitude of what it is that we have to do here in this setting. So when we talk about skin in the game, I’m asking for faculty members to be unabashed in making their students uncomfortable about our explicit anti-racist, anti-biased mission.
What we’ve had, historically, here—and I’ll be very transparent—we’ve had times where we’ve had faculty who have gone and made sure that, “OK, we’re going to show a picture of a lynching in this class because it’s important for people to know the level of trauma that we’re talking about,” and then we’ve had people who were so dysregulated by that, because of their white fragility, who’ve gone to administration, and that faculty member got negative feedback for doing that. So putting practices and policies in place that say, “No matter what the outcome, we’re going to support this anti-sexist, anti-racist mission. When that faculty member hurt that individual’s feelings, we’re going to support that faculty member and support the student by giving them scaffolds to get to where they are mission congruent with who we say we are.” We can’t continue to compromise many of those things.
When we look at the support that we provide for black students on our campus and black faculty and black development of professionals, that’s another piece. Black men have come through this campus and left because they said they didn’t feel valued in this space. Being able to be open and honest and have those conversations, I think that’s where the accomplice comes in as members of a community of higher education.
Advice for educators
Bev Hartman, alumna: What do you recommend to educators at this time?
Lugo: For all educators, we need to create safe space for the dialogue and create safe space for the really difficult conversations that are going to come up because we’re such a divided country right now. Just keeping that door open for education, for dialogue, for honesty, for teaching students not to discount somebody else’s experience because they don’t live in their skin—they don’t live in their body. Just because somebody doesn’t experience something doesn’t mean that it’s not true. To really teach students how to put themselves in somebody else’s shoes and to imagine what it’s like to walk in the shoes of a Dr. Donald Grant, or a Victoria Lugo, or even a Jack Paduntin in this very racially charged divided country.
Dr. Grant: We oftentimes talk about white allyship. But we also have groups of people of color who have this kind of juxtaposition. I have a Latinx male employee, and I let him know that it’s OK for him to express how he also feels in danger because we understand that our Latinx community is also being disenfranchised.
How does allyship look when you are also a part of an oppressed group—just a different oppressed group? I know we have a lot of Latinx students and faculty members. They love to hear how can I go out and get my voice heard for this group specifically and honor my own disenfranchisement and oppression. How do we bring that together to support the greater cause?
Lugo: I think part of it is being comfortable with yourself to speak out about it. When somebody says something that is misinformation in a gentle and kind way, correct that information.
We need to look at institutions of higher learning and really sort of pull people to task. When I was the dean of counseling at Santa Ana College, I was overseeing 20 counselors, and none of them were there the first week before school started. Students were waiting three hours to see a counselor. I said, “I’m so sorry that you have to wait,” and they said, “Oh, it’s OK.” I said, “No, it’s not OK. You need to not accept this. You need to say, ‘This is wrong. I do not need to be waiting three hours to see a counselor here.’” I think you need to teach our students to really speak up and to really demand what it is that they’re entitled to in their educations, whether it’s multicultural curriculum, whether it’s the attention they deserve from a professor or from a student services professional. It’s that kind of situation.
Dr. Grant: I want to call specifically out to our black community members to maybe share what it is that you might need right now.
Sandy Gordon, student: I’m a black student. I do have a mixed ethnic background, but I do identify as black. Yet I consider myself to be also overly ambitious, very high strung at this point. I am also very tired, and I am honestly not happy with how Pacific Oaks has not gone further to reach out to their students in general, but to black students especially. I know we are focusing on George Floyd, as we should, but we are also overlooking police brutality against black women. The reason why I’m actually overwhelmed is because now I’m starting to be aware of how stressful it is to just be human daily during this pandemic. I have been worried about me wearing a beanie, and wearing a mask, and wearing sweats, as I’m just going to go get Boba because I am afraid if there are not people with a camera around, will I be dragged out of my car too and tased? Now that I’m walking around, I carry a book, so if something happens to me, I can say I’m a student. I’m not OK with going to go sit down and watch a lecture. I am not OK to go type a four-page paper. Whether I’m rational or not about my fears, I am literally afraid for my life. I’m afraid for my loved ones.
But people think that, yes, we’re resilient, but I am human, and my best friend is a human, and we’re constantly being asked to produce, when I think we should have paused. We should have paused to process this pandemic. That black and brown communities are disproportionately affected by this pandemic, by practically every system, by mental health care. They’re not even receiving the services they need. We’re constantly talking about justice, but not about the spaces for healing. So I do wish Pacific Oaks, who talks about their mission being social justice and inclusivity, that instead of just putting statements and words, to actually put action behind that. To actually have professors, I shouldn’t even really have to say this, to actually check-in on their students too. What about empathy and compassion if it’s #blacklivesmatter? I shouldn’t have to tell allies to check in on their fellow black loved ones. That wasn’t even a thing for me when I checked in on my loved ones during the pandemic. I don’t have to say, “Oh, you know what? My best friend might be impacted by this pandemic. Wait, somebody told me I should do that. I should go text them.”
Where is the empathy and compassion? If anything, I just ask please, in the future, let us have forums, individually or for different groups, and then collectively have these conversations. Even hear time dedicated to allyship—honestly, there is so much information out there. I’m not trying to be hard, but if I could find that as a black person—just do your own research. I’m literally afraid for my life, and I’m sorry that I cannot turn in a paper or sit down properly when I also have a mother who’s immunocompromised, and I’m worried about her health too.
We’re constantly, “How can we get back to normal? How can we get back to normal?” What if we need to pause before we even get back to normal? What are we even trying to go back to? What do we envision because we’re just so quick to act when those actions might traumatize us further? Even when you’re talking about showing images of lynching, yes. Probably white people need to see that, but what about that black person that’s in there? I’m seeing a lot of things about trauma and hearing about them. What about checking in on students and seeing if they’re OK? What if it’s not the time to really be studying? I just ask that we consider those things too. I’m not saying I’m right. I know we asked to hear our stories, but I just came from a conversation with my best friend and we’re very, very worried about how we’re still being asked to go back to normal, how we’re still being asked to produce and to show up. When probably, we should be sitting down and connecting and finding spaces to actually really see each other right now. I wonder if that’s even contributing to the divisiveness of this country. We’re not even sitting down to really listen to each other and understand each other and practice empathy and compassion, not only when we go out to vote, but within the people within our house, the students that we serve, the staff person in there.
Do your research, please. My therapist whose Latinx asked me to send her resources. That is not OK. I don’t have to do that work for you. Please, sit down and ask yourself. Pray about it. I don’t care, but pause and stop seeking your external leaders and access your own inner wisdom as a human being. Do you have to be told to check in with your son or daughter? No, you do it, because you love them and you care about them.
Dr. Paduntin: Sandy, I’m so happy to at least hear that frustration from you. It is frustrating for the entire community. We can do more. We should do more. The intensifier of the COVID-19 and the unfolding of the history of this racism that we are talking about today made it very difficult for everyone. I’m so glad that at least this is a kick off of our conversation that we should have. First of all, I hope everyone is safe. I’m so glad that Dr. Grant is leading the emergency preparedness for the college, because he cares. We all care about the students, but I could imagine how, in all of these things that happened to us, impacting us greatly in a very different way. The college will do more reaching out. We do care about you, and I’m so glad that you shared your concerns.
Lugo: Sandy, I want to thank you for giving me something concrete that I can do as your Dean of Students and that is to create those spaces for healing. That’s something that I probably wouldn’t have thought about on my own. This is why we need to open up the dialog with our students, because you are the ones who need to tell me what it is it that you need so that I can create those spaces. Thank you for your wisdom, your brilliance, and please, try and rest, because I understand how exhausting it is to be a target of oppression. It is beyond tiring. But you got to rest up and get up and make sure that you’re OK. We got to continue what we’re doing and fighting the good fight. I appreciate everything that you said, and I can tell that Pacific Oaks is really teaching you how to use your voice. I just want you to know how proud I am of that.
Hearing students’ voices
Lucero, graduate student: I too would like to see this happening more often as a graduate student and being part of this amazing community of Pacific Oaks. I also expect or would like to see more action from us as a student body and from the faculty body as far as what we can do. It almost feels like we have all of the knowledge. We have all of the tools. We have a lot of participants that are willing and wanting to do something but yet, what are we doing? These forums are so important, and I also agree that we should make some forums separate for different groups that would like to join in to have a safe space that is for them.
Dr. Grant: I think that’s a very important point that Victoria will take back as she begins to build out. In other institutions, what many of you are talking about are what they call affinity groups that may not be what it is here at PO, but you’re requesting that and it’s nice to hear. Another response to your question is related to our Center for Community and Social Impact. We’re actively working with underserved students across the county and supporting their efforts working directly with them and their families. I’m not saying that to say that it’s enough. Please don’t hear me minimizing your point by excusing the fact that we should and could be doing more, but I do want the community to know that we do have our tentacles out there even though they should and could be more out there.
Dr. Paduntin: The passion comes through and the intention is so good for the community, and I appreciate that. We can act, we can talk; we can educate ourselves; we can be an ally; we can be the doer to make this happen; we need to do something at this time.
Dr. Grant: I love hearing student voices, and I love our faculty and staff being here to support student voices. I want to say to our students, even though we are staff and faculty and administrators, we’re also peers in many ways. Many of you are working in community areas that many of us may not be able to access every day. So we also rely upon you to bring us things that we could be participating in that we may not know about. This is a two-way communication street that we want to be able to know what activities you would like to see us involved with. We can take those to leadership to be able to see if it’s appropriate or if it’s possible for us to be involved.
At this point in history, we’re at a new stage. If you look, we’ve never had white supremacy be held with the level of accountability that we see it held today. It’s not solved; it’s not resolved. As an organization, we don’t have the luxury of being inactive anymore, because the world has been disrupted.
If you’re not a disruptor, you’re not going to make it. We consider ourselves disruptors at Pacific Oaks College. The whole college was founded on a disruption. They said, “We don’t like the way traditional education looks. We want to train our educators in this model.” We sit on that history, but to the point of the two students who spoke, that’s not sufficient.
Shalita Tillman, alumna: For me, I do feel safe. I am one of those disruptors, and I’m a young black female.
I came across a professor who, when she introduced herself, indicated that I am privileged in many ways. And the next word was I’m white. As a black woman, I’m trying to understand what was the point of that comment being made and did that instructor really think before she sent that to see how it makes someone feel that’s not white. I’ve been disturbed by that ever since that took place, and it’s been some time, but I think about it all the time. I’m actually a programs manager out of community college where I see a lot of inequities that go on toward black people such as myself. That’s why I say I’m one of those rattlers, and it’s hurtful and it’s sad because we don’t get a chance to share our voice.
My question to you all is, what could you recommend to get your voice heard? How can we bring that to the forefront with that uncomfortable conversation? I don’t mind having an uncomfortable conversation because I’m made to feel uncomfortable all the time, and it’s not fair or right to me and anybody else that walks into a room and have to feel uncomfortable because of the color of their skin.
Lugo: I think that you need to have that difficult conversation with that faculty member, and I believe that there are teachable moments in education that happen between students and faculty and that we are all learning and doing this dance around how to relate to each other and how to communicate with each other. So I would highly encourage you to contact that faculty member to let that faculty member know how that made you feel and to ask what their intention was. I’m sure that that faculty member has no idea that hurt you. That faculty member I think would love to have that feedback from you.
Tillman: I can tell you that it was kind of swept under the rug and not dealt with, and it made me even more disappointed with how things were handled at Pacific Oaks at that level because of all of the other courses I took that were so great that were in opposition of what I just experienced.
It’s all of the data, all of the statistics. We all know what the problem is. And we keep having these same conversations. We were having these conversations before I was born. I’m 50 years old now. We were having these conversations before my parents were born. When at some point do we put together policies and have people who are at the table that look like us to share their part in creating policies that can be fair for people and we have some implementation and their implementation should I say in fair accountability because I see those two things that are missing from policies because we can have a black person and a white person do the same thing under the same policy. But the implementation’s going to be different. And the accountability is going to be different.
Dr. Grant: You’re exactly right. Those are the things that we are about. How do we find our way into the space of policy? As a nonprofit in Pasadena, we have certain rules that we have to follow as it relates to elections and candidates. But that doesn’t mean we can’t create a platform that supports the knowledge base of our students as it relates to their local elected officials and how they can engage in that activity. There is no prohibition on that.
Things that you describe are very important. Having that being swept under the rug, I think that’s something that is important for the dean or the president to know. We want to be able to escalate those. When I was the dean at the school of human development, I wanted to know those things. If you don’t feel comfortable going to the faculty members, your faculty adviser would be a great next place to start. If you don’t get what you need from your faculty adviser, you go to your dean. If you don’t get what you need from your dean, the president’s door is an open-door policy. You have the luxury of being at a small institution that will allow you to do that.
Dr. Paduntin: I like the fact that we self-advocate as well. I think PO stands for social justice, and you know that, but oftentimes mistakes happen. When mistakes happen, are we pointing out that mistake? I would not put that under the rug because if we don’t speak out, we’re maybe part of the person putting under the rug as well. I don’t believe that any of the leadership, any of the faculty would say it’s a zero-tolerance for those kind of actions. I’m so happy to hear is that everything else was good. But that mistake that somebody made. And that can be corrected.
Just like any other organization, we have a large audience. As much as we all share the same values, the same thoughts, sometimes mistakes happen. We must take care of each other by correcting each other. I think your faculty, even the one that makes you feel uncomfortable, would be open for a conversation that is candid. We’re doing that with good intentions, and we should not stop talking about that. I like Victoria’s suggestion that we must bring that out. We must talk and make sure that it’s right and it’s fair and it’s just. I think that needs to be brought about. Don also suggest a very good approach on how to do that. If you don’t know already, I am an immigrant myself. I am as minority as it can be, as well, in this country. I don’t face racism the way that black men and women do, and I wanted to do everything because I understand how bad it is to be in my position. But my position is not the worst position. I’m fighting for this because it’s so important to me as well.
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